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July 02, 2011

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Spirit of Vatican II

The pathetic performance of the Canadian bishops has received some sensible responses:

http://www.canada.com/life/Bishops+reiterate+homosexuality+accord+with+original+intention/5014124/story.html

Spirit of Vatican II

Archbishop Prendergast is obviously not a Vatican II type. His weblog is exclusively devoted to pietistic droolings about saints. What qualifications has this man, sunk in his pietistic cocoon, for pontificating about gay teenagers?

shane

This is a good document (especially for a bishops' conference), however I note with some regret that it does not support or even suggest 'conversion therapy', which has helped many people and ought to be free (as in paid for by the Church) and mandatory for Catholic youth afflicted with SSA.

There is a MUCH better document on this subject here by the US Catholic Medical Association: http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=3336

Only a few decades ago, the Canadian bishops infamously ripped up Humanae Vitae. Things they are a changin'.

shane

*Times they are a changing.

The Winnipeg statement, attacking Humanae Vitae, can be found here:

http://web.archive.org/web/20080514023803/http://www.catholic-legate.com/articles/winnipeg.html">http://www.catholic-legate.com/articles/winnipeg.html">http://web.archive.org/web/20080514023803/http://www.catholic-legate.com/articles/winnipeg.html

Fr Gabriel Burke

I am surprised that you would use slurs. It is not that long ago that you corrected me for calling you a modernist, yet you have no problem using a slur against a good organisation. "Courage, a wacky rightwing ministry"
I have often acted a spiritual director at courage meetings as well as leading days of recollections. I am astounded that you would use such a label. It is simply an organisation that allows people with same sex attraction to lead a celibate life. It does not force people to join it. It does not require reaparative therapy. It simply is a save place for people to meet. All its goals and the development of its 12 steps have come from the experience of its members.
In all the time I have worked with Courage I have discovered nothing which could be remotely described as right wing. I have met people who have decided that a celibate life is the preferred life for them. How is that right wing? Or do you believe people do not have a right to choose a celibate lifestyle in the single life?

Spirit of Vatican II

Shane, who would have thought it, --you, an ex-gay freak? I am really shocked.

Spirit of Vatican II

Courage no doubt has innocent, well-meaning members. But I have read enough of John Harvey to know their sick ideology. Also they cosy up to the evil, abusive NARTH. The 12 steps sounds like AA, suggesting that homosexual orientation is some kind of accursed addiction. A band of brothers supporting each other in chaste, celibate lifestyle is of course a noble ideal -- as old as Christianity itself -- but it is not what Courage is about and it is not the reason red-hat hungry prelates support Courage.

shane

Spirit, I am certainly NOT "an ex-gay freak" and don't quite know how you got that impression. I am exclusively staight. But I do think those who suffer from this disorder should be entitled to appropriate medical help (from which many have benefited).

colkoch

"Struggling with same-sex attraction! It sounds like battling cancer." Or an addiction, or a personality disorder, or a congenital defect. Pick your poison.

I was going to comment on this letter myself, but something are better left to rot in darkness. My sincere hope is Canadian kids laugh this tripe off just as they would any one who tried to tell them baseball ruled in Canada.

Spirit of Vatican II

I have sympathy for ex-gay freaks, for they are struggling with a contradiction between their godgiven nature and an indoctrination that tells them their nature is disordered. But you are a heartless outsider who pontificates on people you know nothing about, pretending to know better than the entire medical and psychiatric professions how their "problem" should be treated.

shane, what are you? A 21 year old man who spends his time amid the dusty archives of a dead journal, The Irish Ecclesiastical Record, and gets his jollies out of acting as an ultra-reactionary old man?

Where is your taste for life, or for love?

"Live all you can, it's a mistake not to."

"Cueillez dès aujourd'hui les roses de la vie."

Don't let a rancid churchiness burgle your bank of youth.

And let others have their life and their youth also.

Spirit of Vatican II

Colleen, "rot in darkness" indeed -- of course it is being posted all over the internet, but that gives it no more substance than the billboards in Maoist China or Stalinist Russia. We must stop taking notice of these paper tigers.

Theologians can shake off the nightmare of two millennia of murderous homophobia only by making a strong push for the extension of sacramental marriage to same-sex couples. Only so can we attain the "purification of memory" John Paul II called for. His successor seems to think that can happen without any apologies, any action, any change. It can't.

shane

Thanks for the ad hominems Spirit. Clearly I annoy you immensely - which is for me a rich consolation. After all I did voluntarily subject myself to the torturous experience of actually reading your ongoing defecation of rubbish on this blog (why Lord, oh why?), so it is a consolation well-merited. As for my penchant for perusing dead, dusty religious texts - that's a strange criticism from a man whose vision for reviving Irish Catholicism is limited to interminable blather about the need to waste our collective time reading about the pursuits of ancient Hebrew desert tribes (which you probably regard as lies anyway). No offence but if I want profitable advice on how to best spend my youth, I think there are much better sources out there than some elderly bachelor in Tokyo who teaches James Joyce for a living.

That said, the fact that I am even taking you seriously probably proves your point.

Spirit of Vatican II

Shane, not ad hominems but an effort at conversion therapy; I see you are a restive recipient thereof though you prescribe a drastic and destructive therapy for others, suckered by the fraudulent ex-gay propaganda.

Further advice, to myself as well: please take a leaf from the book of Michael Bayly (half-way in age between us). He is a model of how to live generously and joyfully. Here he is on the US bishops' "guidelines" for young gays produced a few years ago: http://thewildreed.blogspot.com/2006/11/when-guidelines-lack-guidance.html

Tiggy

Oh Father. I would not ever have accused you of living either "generously or joyfully". As there seems to be room in your version of Church for everyone, except the orthodox.

Spirit of Vatican II

The ex-gay propagandists are not "orthodox" by any stretch of the imagination.

Tiggy

I do not know who or what an ex-gay propagandist is!?

Spirit of Vatican II

Really? Just google.

Spirit of Vatican II

google "NARTH"

tiggy

Did nt know of its existance. Strange. But does not really pertain here.

Ex-Gay Nutter

I'm an ex-gay nutter and I laud the Canadian bishops on their document, but more needs to be done for those who are afflicted with this condition so that they may live life to the full.

Spirit of Vatican II

Do you mean Ex-Gay in the sense of (a) formerly homosexual, now heterosexual; (b) formerly sexually active, now not: (c) formerly adopting a "gay" identity, but now redescribing yourself as "afflicted with a condition"? (d) none of the above, just a believer in the value of the ex-gay ideology for other people?

Ex-Gay Nutter

None of the above, and not (d) neither.

I'm sorry Father but you are behind the times on this one. The Church's teaching is correct and modern psychology is proving as much. People who have SSA deserve the truth and they deserve to be offered the possibility of healing and peace. They deserve the Gospel in its fullness. Winking at sin and imprisoning people in their sins is not compassion, it is cruelty. I know you mean well, but on this issue, you are wrong.

Spirit of Vatican II

Oh, I get it, you are a Canadian bishop!

Tiggy

Not sure where you are coming from "ex-gay nutter". But Fr is bordering on the correct on this issue. Which is more than can be said for him on most other issues.

Ex-Gay Nutter

So, the Church and Her teaching on human sexuality is wrong, is that it?

There is an interesting article here: 'Gay Marriage and the Next Gulag' -
http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otc.cfm?id=830

Spirit of Vatican II

I am chuffed that for once you find me bordering on the correct!

Spirit of Vatican II

Oh dear, Jeffrey Mirus! this is real culture-war tripe.

Ex-Gay Nutter

Indeed it is Father, and I am sorry to say it, but you are on the wrong side of the war!

Spirit of Vatican II

What Micheal-in-Norfolk calls "ex-gay batshitery" has the deleterious side-effect of pushing gay men into the beds of heterosexual wives, with tragic consequences all round. Michael speaks from personal experience. Here is what he says:

"One of the major points of disgust I have with the bogus "ex-gay" agenda pushed by Christianist organizations and so-called reparative therapy "ministries" is that they do not seem to give a tinkers damn about the straight spouses that knowingly or unknowingly find themselves married to a closeted gay or lesbian. The agenda is all about "changing" the gay or lesbian spouse straight and the favorite proof of the "ex-gay" conversion is marriage to an opposite sex spouse. The collateral damage that is almost guaranteed to flow to the straight spouse and any children of the marriage when it ends means nothing to the likes of the folks at Exodus International.

"Also missing from the mix is any concern that the straight spouse marrying an "ex-gay" has been cheated out of having a marriage to someone who is heterosexual even if the closeted LGBT spouse remains faithful and remains in the marriage. No, sadly, the political agenda of the Christianists to be able to parade "ex-gays" before the public, legislators and judges in their quest to denigrate and marginalize LGBT rights trumps all else. It's disgusting and, to me, demonstrates the utter moral bankruptcy of ex-gay proponents."

Spirit of Vatican II

A column in Huffington Post makes the same point:

" In the past, most lesbians and gay men married opposite-gender spouses and tried as best they could to fit into the heterosexual mould their society expected, not infrequently indulging in clandestine gay liaisons.

"These are the marriages that the Gay Marriage Act will mostly end. And some of its most fervent supporters have been the heterosexual spouses of closeted homosexuals. These gay husbands and their wives and ex-wives, and lesbian wives and their husbands and ex-husbands number in the millions, and number in the millions -- between 1.7 and 3.4 million -- and are increasingly speaking out about how their experience has affected them personally.

"The Straight Spouse Network, for instance, use a virtual community "for all the millions of us who find that we are married or in a long term relationship with someone who we find out is gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered, or just not sure about that." "

Spirit of Vatican II

Here is another utterance from Michael-in-Norfolk which makes clear how Christianist bigots are destroying Christianity, including the Catholic Church:

"I've talked before about the bizarre upside down morality of the Christian Right which has taken a religion that per the Gospels themselves should focus on love of neighbor and forgiveness of others and turned it instead into and unrelenting message of hatred. Hatred of gays, hatred of blacks, hatred of Hispanics, hatred of immigrants - indeed, hatred of just about everyone but for the cadre of haters themselves. Among those leading the charge with the banner of hatred is Family Research Council ("FRC") which time and time again proves the Southern Poverty Law Center 100% on target when it added to FRC to its list of registered hate groups. FRC latest missive of hate is a call for its Kool-Aid drinking followers to basically pray for the criminalization of homosexuality. Never mind the destroyed lives - and murders - such laws produce. Right Wing Watch has details on this foul "call to prayer." Here are details:
*
"In the Family Research Council’s latest prayer target list, the organization asks people to pray for countries, Malawi in particular, that have laws criminalizing sodomy. The FRC believes that they are facing unfair pressure from the U.S. to decriminalize homosexuality, and accuses the Obama administration of “pushing homosexuality, using taxpayer dollars.” According to the United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights, Malawi is one of more than 70 countries that outlaw “same-sex relations between consenting adults” and earlier this year “Malawi enacted a law criminalizing homosexuality among women. Homosexuality is already illegal for men in that county. If convicted, a defendant could receive up to five years’ imprisonment.” Last year, a gay couple in Malawi was sentenced to fourteen years in jail.
*
"The FRC’s support of policies like Malawi’s should come as no surprise, as the group backs the criminalization of homosexuality and has previously criticized the State Department for calling on countries to decriminalize homosexuality. Now, the FRC wants people to pray that God “give targeted nations courage to withstand U.S. coercion” and “forgive us for this evil”: May God restrain the Obama administration from promoting the LGBT agenda at home and abroad. May He give targeted nations courage to withstand U.S. coercion! Forgive us for this evil (Ps 94:16; Is 3:9-15; Jer 7:3-11; Lk 17:2; Rom 1:32; Jas 3:13-18; Jude 7).
*
"And people wonder why Christianity is dying in educated portions of the world! FRC makes the case for putting as much distance as possible between one's self and Christianity. Meanwhile, where are the "good Christians"? Once again yielding the field to the hate merchants with little more than a whimper. The Christianists at FRC are guilty of sins of commission. The "good Christians" by their silence are guilty of sins of omission."

Spirit of Vatican II

Here is another piece of madness from the ex-gay freaks: http://www.truthwinsout.org/pressreleases/2011/07/17544/

Spirit of Vatican II

Note this from the combox of the above:

"The issue of “curing gay people” is one that hits home in a deeply painful and personal way to me. A couple of years ago, at a very vulnerable moment in my life (my parents had both passed away within months of each other), I sought solace in the Catholic Church (where I was raised) and, ultimately, began attending meetings of “Courage,” their official “Pray the Gay Away” ministry. It was the most shaming and damaging experience I have have ever endured. The more I tried to embrace it and “give it a chance,” the deeper I fell into an abyss of depression, despair and self- destructive behaviors. Had I continued, suicide would surely have been on the horizon. It was a long and hard road back to sanity. Conversely, the most healing and self-affirming moment of my life was proudly marching in this year’s NYC Pride parade with New Yorkers United for Marriage. In a few short weeks, I will also be celebrating my 1-year anniversary in a recovery program that has saved my life. I share this intensely personal story because I cannot be silent after having learned first hand that “Ex-Gay” and “reparative” therapies do not CURE. They KILL."

tiggy

mmmnnn I would draw the line way before "Gay Marriage" when of course no such state exists.

Spirit of Vatican II

Curiously, a majority of Americans, and especially of American Catholics, support gay marriage. And is it not society rather than the church that ultimately gets to say what counts as marriage?

shane

A majority of American Catholics also support the death penalty. Should the Church change her stance on that also?

Tiggy

No Fr. as always its the liberal media(ie all of it) who gets to say what counts as marriage, followed by the politicians, who both then "soften up" public views. Just as happened with abortion.
How anyone, in their right mind can equate union of man and woman with union of man and man or woman and woman is beyond me.

Tiggy

I m not sure why you keep banging on about America. I don t live there and neither do you.

Spirit of Vatican II

boy loves girl, boy loves boy, girl loves girl -- as far as I can see young people today refuse to see a difference in kind between these different situations.

Tiggy

oops Father. A few posts seem to be missing. Shades of "pray tell"

Spirit of Vatican II

I thought the person concerned would not want her personal life discussed here.

Tiggy

Well how kind of you. But none of it is any kind of secret.

Tiggy

Though you are probably right and I probably should not have made the discussion so personal.

Jeff

Once again some members of the hierarchy have shown how deluded they are and what pathetic human beings they have become. Has not the hierarchy become a thing, a thing that has again and again spread its poison throughout the Church? There is no limit to the deception and arrogance of those clerics who are bound and determined to condemn the gay life style. Such is mission 'one' of nearly all priests and hierarchs.

Rat-biter

“While homosexual acts are always objectively wrong, same-sex inclinations are not in themselves sinful or a moral failing. To the extent that a same-sex attraction is not freely chosen, there is no personal culpability in having such an inclination. Nonetheless, when oriented toward genital activity, this inclination is ‘objectively disordered.”

What an icy tone! What a smug framing of gay feelings, desires, love, in terms of sinfulness an disorder! This is the language of hypocrisy, of the whited sepulchers denounced by Jesus.

## Smug ? Impersonal, maybe - but as that is a statement of principle, & not than an encounter between persons, ISTM to strike the right note. I don't agree with the content of what's said, but the remedy for that is a more adequate theological understerstanding of what it is to be gay. Plenty of the NT could be dismissed as equally lacking in sympathy - including parts of the gospels.

The Vatican does put foot in mouth sometimes - but not in this case; its description is a poor fit, that's all.

Spirit of Vatican II

The Pharisees also opposed "statements of principle" to Jesus' Sabbath healings.

Like the Canadian bishops they parroted their rulebook, ignoring the welfare of human beings.

Spirit of Vatican II

Shane, I think we need to come up with a more positive and constructive approach to pedophiles. I know one ex-pedophile who found his way out of addictive pedophilia due to his love of a man he met when the man was a 13 yo boy; 30 years later they are the happiest of couples. A lesson could be drawn here. In the 1970s many gay activists were sympathetic to pedophiles, and now they have clammed up; the correct attitude has yet to be found. Considering that the age of consent is 13 in Spain, I do not think Senator Norris's view are beyond the pale.

shane

Spirit, I'm inclined to agree. I think society has developed an obsession with paedophilia in general. Two days after the Cloyne Report was released I went into the shop to buy a newspaper. There were about 14 papers on the shelf (both national and local) and 6 of them had reports about child abuse/sex on the front page (none of that related to Cloyne). A few days afterwards I went into the shop and the only paper I seen also had a report on the front page about a man who had sex with children.

shane

I went into the shop last night and the lone paper left (local) had a headline 'Rapes and Sex Assault Numbers Up'. 'Obsession' does not cover it.

Incidentally I read in the current issue of the Catholic Voice newspaper (pg 3):

"In futher controversy another high profile member of the group (ACP - shane) Cork priest Father Joe O'Leary tried to justify the alleged homosexual actions of Bishop Magee towards a seminarian, commenting online Father O'Leary said "Magee is widely perceived to be gay. His inappropriate behavior is perfectly explicable as that of a sentimental gay man in presence of a lovely youth, toward whom in all probability his romantic aspirations were purely platonic." At the time of going to press Father O'Leary could not be contacted."

shane

Post-script: I was not endorsing the article, just alerting you to it. On the contrary, I think it's a case of seriously idiotic reporting, quite characteristic of the paper it's in (which few people take seriously --- take a look at my comments and those of others on it at the Irish Catholics' Forum).

I can send you a scan of it if you want, just to show I'm not making it up

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