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December 18, 2011



This is all well and good but again your rhetoric is completely overblown. You used to make arguments, now you just make assertions.


I'd have more respect for the bishops if they gave up living in their comparative palaces, their rainments, salaries etc; and decided to live at the prevailing income of the average Filipino/a.

Spirit of Vatican II

"me", I doubt if there are any new arguments to be made. The facts spell out the arguments for themselves. The choice is between a functioning society, in which women have control over reproduction, and runaway over-population in which children are forced to live in malnutrition or environments deleterious to their health, or are sold into prostitution. The people who cry NFP is the answer are merely fanatics. But if you have an argument to propose in their favor, then do so.


Facts are not arguments.

For example: A tree is cut down. That is a fact and does not tell you anything at all about the morality of cutting down a tree.

Women have always had control over their reproductive activities (except in the case of rape). They can decide not to have sex.

I do not have an argument to propose since you have still failed to offer one.

I may note that you have merely constructed a faulty dilemma. Either the world is overpopulated, malnourished, and polluted or we distribute contraceptives and the world is not overpopulated, malnourished and polluted. There is, of course, a whole series of other possibilities.

I might also add that contraceptives have been freely available in most parts of the world over the last 50 years and these problems did not lessen or go away.

Spirit of Vatican II

Facts often do imply arguments. If you find a man running with bloodstained knife from the scene of a murder, the facts tell their own story. The Filipino tragedy is as obvious as that, it seems to me. I am sure you can put it in syllogistic form if you need to.

Of course contraceptives have prevented over-population in many places. The one Catholic country of Asia is distinguished by its utter incapacity to control its population. And you tell the people of the Philippines, Tough, why do you have sex?

Some missionaries in the Philippines advocate sterilization as well. A perfectly sensible idea, it seems to me.


"Some missionaries in the Philippines advocate sterilization as well. A perfectly sensible idea, it seems to me."

Thank you Margaret Sanger.

Perhpas you would like to experiment on the population as well.


By the way the facts do not make an argument. Even in your own illustration the facts tell one nothing. " If you find a man running with bloodstained knife from the scene of a murder, the facts tell their own story". There are a dozen reasons the man could be running with a bloodstained scene of a murder. Perhaps he was attacked by the murderer as well and succesfully defended himself. Perhpas he picked up the knife to take it to the police. etc.

Spirit of Vatican II

The sad irony is that first world people have long agreed to take no notice whatever of Vatican strictures on pills and condoms, so that the Vatican is now using impoverished third world populations for their obscene theological experiments. Bishops and theologians who are utterly dependent on the Vatican financially are collaborating in this. I count the Philippines as a third world country though it was once the richest country in Asia. Why?

As to sterilization, since vasectomies are reversible it is no longer a very dramatic issue, it seems to me.


I really do wonder why people such as "Spirit of Vatican II" do not leave the Catholic Church in which they are evidently so miserable, for the more hospitable climes of the Episcopalian and related communions. There contraception, and indeed, almost anything else, is acceptable, and there is no such thing as pesky magisterial authority to contend with. "Authority" basically is the zeitgeist and the feel-good morality of the secular west. Behaviour that would have shocked and outraged our grandparents is now not just legal but the new orthodoxy - and the spirit of Vatican II types, for whom any restriction of sexual activity is hopelessly outdated and "pre-Vatican II" can have it in spades as Episcopalians. Why follow the Catholic Church if she has no unique authority to teach on matters of faith and morals? If it is all a matter of taste, opinion, feeling mixed in with popular consensus and the values of the secular zeitgeist, then why bother with the Church? You can let it all hang out - and have better taste - as an Anglican/Episcopalian or in an thousand other denominations!

Spirit of Vatican II

Nicholas, you did not notice that my post was not a plea for sexual libertinism, but rather a "justice and peace" posting, about the dignity of women in the Philippines. You guys think everything boils down to the pelvic. And far from being miserable I am happy to keep reminding people of the best in Catholicism, as expressed in Vatican II, when the Church really did appear as an icon of the Kingdom of God.

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